Rhino Announces Full Slate of RSD "Black Friday" Releases

Rhino announced on October 24th an impressive lineup of RSD "Black Friday" 2014 vinyl releases including the MONO version of Iron Butterfly's classic Heavy album cut from analog tape on "heavy" 180g vinyl for $24.98.

Among the other titles coming on November 28th from Rhino:

The Afghan Whigs - Gentlemen At 21 (Deluxe Edition)
3-LP limited edition of 4,750 copies on 180-gram vinyl, $59.98

Grateful Dead - 11/18/72 Hofheinz Pavilion, Houston, TX
2-LP limited edition of 7,200 copies on 180-gram vinyl, $36.98

Hüsker Dü - Warehouse: Songs And Stories
2-LP limited edition of 5,000 copies on neon green and yellow vinyl, $39.98

New Order - 1981-1982
Limited edition of 6,700 copies on clear vinyl, $16.98

Ramones - Morrissey Curates the Ramones
Individually numbered, limited edition of 9,000 copies, $22.98

Velvet Underground - MCMXCII
4-LP limited edition of 7,500 copies on translucent blue vinyl, $69.98

Here is where I go into my "We need a SPARS code for vinyl" mode. No doubt the Morrissey curated Ramones album will be digitally sourced but what about the Iron Butterfly? Or the Whigs' 3 LP set? Or The Dead double LP? Don't we all think every announcement should include the source, who mastered and where it was pressed?

Otherwise we're just buying souvenirs. I have enough souvenirs.

COMMENTS
amarok89's picture

to assume, especially with record store day, that everything comes from digital masters with an occasional surprise? This is to get the youngsters into record stores. Does anyone really expect these (mostly) oddities to be "pull out all the stops analog"?

Michael Fremer's picture
Heavy was cut from analog tape according to Chris Bellman. He also told me that he recently cut Joni Mitchell's Hejira and that "it came out great."
dobyblue's picture

Hi Michael,
Would you please ask Chris about the Nov 24th first time on vinyl release of Dave Matthews Band's "Under the Table and Dreaming"? It says remastered from the original flat analog tapes and cut for vinyl by Chris Bellman, but doesn't say "cut by Chris Bellman from the original analog tape" and I'm sure as you well know there is a difference. I hope they well meant that it's all analogue but I'd still love to get clarification.
Thanks!

audiof001's picture

RSD was originally created to get any and everyone into indie stores. With vinyl's resurgence RSD might be now deemed unnecessary, yet it still makes for a fun day. I love going into an indie record store and flip thru the stacks with so many people doing the same - better youngsters and a bunch of old farts. ;-)

amarok89's picture

and I would browse in RSD but I'm kind of past that. I look at the list of releases and I'm better off browsing on any other day soon after. I get a lot of left overs. Catching up on reissues of old stuff is nearly done and the new stuff is foriegn to me (except certain indie) What can I do? I browse locally 365 - 2 and mail order the rest. :-)

Bigrasshopper's picture

If your looking for company while you dream about sound quality and source disclosure, I'll dream that little dream with you, if you think it'll help. Of course some of your other dreaming has found its way into the real world, so I shouldn't be sarcastic. Evolution takes time and effort and backsliding. Disclosure would sure help to make comparisons and educational insights easier to get a handle on. Getting pressing plants up and running is only half the battle.
As for Rhino, I think they may have loosened the high standards that I had come to expect, both in terms of quality to source and disclosure. It's been at least a couple of years since I've seen their sticker proudly bearing the source, mastering facility and pressing plant. For instance, none of the Talking Heads albums that they've released has asserted that their from master tapes, though they do have the RTI sticker. Why would a label go to trouble of doing AAA and not proclaim it. For consistent presentation when they don't ? I bought those albums despite that because of Rhino's reputation and they do in fact sound good, but I don't have a comparison and not knowing pisses me off.
There are comparatively fewer discerning vinyl buyers now, so mabey labels like Rhino that had taken up the analoge banner are caving into demand for quantity at low price. I always felt Rhino vinyl AAA was a steal at $24.99. At this point in vinyl's resurgence, if it don't say AAA, I don't buy it, unless, as is the exception, it's well reviewed. And for the most part that means Micheal, I just wish there were more of you. Otherwise, what's the point, I have a decent Dac.
Charley Rose was holding up Annie Lennox's latest album as an item of refreshing curiosity and mentioned the nostalgia and the regret that some have after throwing them out. She spoke of the "warmth" of vinyl. An easy expression that only hints at its potential. So that the album has got to be digital has me imagining icebergs in a blanket. We can wrap any way you like. That's inevitable, but when the master tape exists..
When I cornered Bill Shapio, a prominent figure long in Kansas City's music scene who does a popular NPR radio show Cypress Avenue, for as long as I can remember and brings in talent to the old Folly threater most recently Richard Thompson, and after comparing our systems and inviting me for a listen on his, I asked him
his take on the A vs D question. He's says " Your getting it all with CD ". Figuring he was the senior, he wouldn't want to come to my house, I let it drop. But man, here is a guy with a large vinyl collection who writes a book " Rock and Roll Review: a guide to good rock on CD" 1991. Makes sense. He has some older, heavier Wilson speakers and the AR Anniversary pre. And the AR CD player. All his vinyl is behind closed doors on another floor from his system. I don't know what to make of it. Tubes - yes Vinyl - no. I for Bill it more about the music, but.. Go figure.
I'm going to stop now.

amarok89's picture

why does not knowing piss you off??? Goddam that's what gets me about most of the people on this site. I am now listening to Wilco and Billy Bragg's Mermaid ave. vol. II on vinyl of which I longed for for years when it was only on CD. The sticker says "180g Audiophile Vinyl Lacquers cut by Bernie Grundman Mastering Plated and pressed at Pallas, Diepholz, Germany". Does it tell me it's analog or digital, NO!! Who gives a shit, I got a long awaited release on vinyl and it sounds great to me. I'm happy. Ignore this hyperbolic bullshit and be happy you have an LP that sounds good to you. Its easy if you just let it be.

PeterPani's picture

Mainly my records shelf is dividied into two sections. Vinyl I am listening to and vinyl that is just sitting there after initial listening. And I am afraid, that nearly all vinyl that is just sitting there and will never be heard again is cut from digital sources. It is no pleasure to listen to this stuff. Makes no fun. I guess, it depends on the hifi-system I own. It plays analog music so magically and digs out every bit in the grooves. I know people with "colder" sounding amps that got used to clinical sound. Maybe, on these music systems it does not matter whether an analog or digital source is played.

amarok89's picture

Is moderate, costing about 18 grand total with the most expensive piece being the turntable. But that is moderate to me, perhaps to all of you it is lower end and cold sounding. To me I get some incredibly rich, warm sound put of it, and yes depending on the record some duds. And I am we'll aware that there is much better sound to be heard on a system like yours and Michael's. But you miss my point. The poster was pissed off at not knowing the source of an LP that sounds good to him. The slbums on your unplayed shelf dont sound good to you. If your system is so high end that any inherent flaws of digital becomes greatly exaggerated then I feel for you. I am not being sarcastic here. You guys do need more labeling of the source. I am for that. But these days I just assume something is digital if it doesn't explicitly state full analog chain.

Michael Fremer's picture
Who gives a shit what's in it. Is that your position? Not mine. I think buyers are entitled to know the source and if it is digital at least the resolution. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. Look what happened with the Shelby Lynne album: she took the time and effort to record it AA. An A lacquer was cut but it got damaged. So rather than recutting from the tape, her label Lost Highway cut from digital—probably an effing CD. That album was so well recorded to begin with that that LP sounded really great (though the United pressing wasn't great). End of story? NO, because Analogue Productions reissued it FROM THE TAPE and please compare. No comparison. When there is tape, issuing it from digital, especially at CD resolution is a travesty.
amarok89's picture

sorry for replying to the wrong space.

Bigrasshopper's picture

Most people on this site enjoy analog. That they share a rationality that supports our enjoyment only furthers that pleasure. If you like some analog, chances are you'll like more analog even better. Not only have I found this to be true, but it it also stands to reason. I got into vinyl on the promise of better sound. The rest of the package has just been an added benefit, for me. If hi-res audio gets you there and you like a physical presentation then hybrid vinyl makes perfect sense. I have reserved my vinyl purchases, for larger part, for those products that reflect the height of the craft. It turns me on. So please don't bother yourself over the pursuit of my pleasure, getting irked from time to time over a speed bump is built in to the course I'm driving. I'm sorry I used the " piss " phrase, it only triggers uglier expletives.
I support disclosure on food labels and for anything I'm going to consume. I think the Talking Heads sounds good. I listen without the knowledge. I listen to Paul McCartney's reissues from Abbey Road, I think they sound better still. But no disclosure there either. I want to be educated. If digital can sound as good as analog, I want to know it. I already know that some digital sounds better than some anolog. But I couldn't know that without knowing the source. The limited number of Golden Era tapes is only going to get smaller and smaller and as much of this this culture needs to be persevered in the format in which it was created. The question is how far can we raise the bar for the working business model ? Education and demand.

amarok89's picture

That's cables and oranges. I don't do those kinds of comparisons, but I do love the way you start big with your assumptions Michael. But to be polite I will answer and say no. Buyers are entitled to know what they are getting and I support that, I do think there should be better labeling. If you read the example I posted it was about an album that I always liked after several years of only being available on CD. I am glad it finally came out on vinyl but I can't remember if Wilco did digital recording in the studio or not. And I always assumed they used a digital source for the vinyl because they emphasized the cutting and pressing details but not the source. But I had already committed the sin of liking a CD from several years before. I only bought the CD because it was not available on LP. Now I will go back to the CD or check on the internet to find out if the original recording was analog, and if it was and they pressed from the CD master, then yes, that is a bummer. Travesty?? Maybe not but definitively a bummer. Would I put it on a shelf of records not to listen to because I now know that? No. Your example of what happened to Shelby Lynne is inexcusable, but it has no bearing on my original point. You are speaking to the bigger issue within the limited scope of this thread. I agree with you on the bigger issue. I've loved music all of my life and it has been analog for most of it, but in the digital world things are getting complicated so I do the best I can within my budget. One thing is always true to me, if something sounds good I don't get pissed off. I listen.

Michael Fremer's picture
I believe Jeff Tweedy is way into analog recording at that Wilco albums were so recorded. Whether or not they were mixed to analog tape I'm not sure but I think so. In other news I have lacquer and DMM test pressings from Abbey Road of one of their albums (I think "Yankee Fox Trot Hotel") and they sound very different.... but that's another story!
amarok89's picture

about Tweedy, but I just checked all of my albums and they don't say how they were recorded. One does thank a person for digital assistance, but with some of their sound affects who knows if that was only part of it. The only conversations I remember from documentaries or interviews were more about the band preferring vinyl but it looks like I still don't know the actual source. Lacquer and DMM test pressings of Yankee, now that's intriguing.

Spewey's picture

"If they sound good why does not knowing piss you off??? Goddam that's what gets me about most of the people on this site."

...and yet...

"Buyers are entitled to know what they are getting and I support that, I do think there should be better labeling."

As Ian Hunter once said "You're Never Alone With A Schizophrenic" ;-)

amarok89's picture

of an idiotic use of his quotes. You take a statement I make in one post about being puzzled why someone is bummed for not knowing if its analog after he knows the lp sounds good, and then juxtapose that with a statement where I am clarifying with Micheal about something he misapplied to that very quote. Read the posts again carefully Spewey you'll get it. Ian won't mind if you state you own case.

Spewey's picture

However, I also think buyers are entitled to know what they are getting and there should be better labeling... even though -- it's all "hyperbolic bullshit" -- and really...who give's a shit?

mmarston's picture

My Atco (cutout) of Heavy is stereo. I suppose this means I'll have to listen to the damn thing. Have to admit it's been a while.

Regarding provenance, I'm glad MF is fighting the good fight, information is always better than no info, I'd love to see labeling on everything... but in my bottom-feeder pair o' 12s/NAD 533/SL95B world I'm happy to have anything that sounds decent; not to say that I don't want better. For example I'm thrilled with my box set of the Who, not least because it had 6 more albums than I had already, but also that "Sell Out" sounds way better than my other 50c lending-library-sale copy which is beat to hell. Do I care that it's 24/96? Does it beat the tan MCA "Quadrophenia" that I suspect was Decca mastered, or the rainbow "Who's Next?" No... so I picks and chooses from what I has.

But hey, what do I know? I'm neck deep into dubbing everything to 24/96 for the server I'm building. Hell, I'm about to start copying from cassettes...

I'm sure in alternate timelines I have direct access to all the bands without bothering with any kind of recording anyway. They'll just come over and play "Axis" whenever I want.

Russo7516's picture

While the concept is great idea should RSD be everyday. I mean I am a collector and enjoy the hobby so to speak . But when I see the prices of RSD and some Internet Sites I cringe. Last week I just picked a 1 press of the First Grateful Dead album in Brooklyn for $30 and in VG shape. Go digg it a lot more fun them wanting on a line for a few new presses. Enjoy the hobby

schmecty's picture

I care because these reissues are expensive. I know a lot of audiophiles have money to throw around, but I do not, so I have to be selective about what I buy. That means buying records that have the best chance of being worth their cost, which to me are the AAA reissues. I agree that I would be happy with with a great-sounding record regardless of source, but many of the digitally-sourced records are not worth spending money on, so I do not take the chance of wasting my money.

Ben Adams's picture

Hey, Michael ... any chance you'll be reviewing the Led Zep Houses of the Holy vinyl reissue? There appears to be a pressing flaw on a wide swatch of copies where the left channel of "The Ocean" is borked with distortion. You're one of the few people who, if this is the case, could help shame the label into a replacement program.

Michael Fremer's picture
I am about to finally review "Led Zep III" so I've yet to ask Rhino for further Zep albums but once III is up I will ask for this.
rlohayza's picture

Ben, thanks for bringing this up. I thought I was having speaker problems during "The Ocean".

Bigrasshopper's picture

Here is a Universal Capital reissue scheduled for Dec. 9th that claims to be from the original tapes. Really ?

180-gram double LP plated and pressed at Quality Record Pressings!
Vinyl has been cut from the original analog masters
Packaging is faithful to the original artwork
Representatives at Universal Music Group say that the vinyl was cut from the original analog master tapes.

I like the way the dealer distances themselves from the claim by writing "representives say"
I find it extremely doubtful that compilation albums would be cut from original masters, especially when the mono past masters were disclosed to be made from new copies. It wasn't clear to me why the past masters was not cut and re spliced together to form a direct from master compilation album if the tracks where not attached to official albums already. In other words what reel or reels were they protecting intact, when the Past Masters is an official compilation album that certainly deserves the same quality as the rest ? Not that it wasn't good, but I could hear some loss compared to the others.
When you get an angle on this Micheal, please fill us in. Thanks.

Michael Fremer's picture
I have no problem with that. They are just saying that THEY are not making the claim, the reissuing company is. That is all they know so they are being honest about it. Yes "original master tapes" is suspicious but usually the reps making these statements are clueless. If the original compilation tapes used to make those albums in the first place have survived in good condition they very well may have been used.
Bigrasshopper's picture

I don't have a problem either, the dealer helpfully disclosing the limits of their knowledge. But also playing the game whilst covering their asses on a lacquer their plating and pressing. I just think it's funny how that statement highlights the importance of who is saying what about whom. Not that these are going to compare with the monos, but had their been a bit more disclosure one could completely dismiss them. Whatever they are, they will be appropriate for someone. It can be hard to tell if the sales reps are being smart and sly about a product or as you say simply " clueless ". A confusing combination is closer to the truth, I'd venture.

mikemoon's picture

I'm pretty sure all the Talking Heads reissues are all analog, Kevin Gray cut the early ones and then Chris Bellman did the later titles. I've sourced this information before but forget all the details at the moment. The one's Bellman did sound as good or better than the original vinyl. Kevin Gray did a good job on Remain In Light as well.

From my research Wilco information is as follows:
Yankee - AAA
Ghost - AAA
Sky Blue Sky - AAD
Wilco S/T - AAD or ADD?
Wilco - The Whole Love - DDD

Wilco typically records and mixes to tape (when machines are available). I think this was the case with Mavis Staples albums as well. They used to cut from tape b but on the latest releases where Bob Ludwig started doing the mastering, it seems his high res digital file are used to cut the vinyl by another vinyl mastering engineer (e.g., Kevin Gray, Chris Bellman, Wes Garland). This seems to be the norm with many of Bob's clients.

mikemoon's picture

I agree and wish their was full disclosure with vinyl. I prefer AAA vinyl but I have numerous lps cut from high res files that sound exceptional. My favorite typically tend to be all analog though.

Oddly enough, I've discovered many new releases over the years that are AAA but were never disclosed. I guess their target market wasn't audiophiles and the disclosure for them seemed unnecessary. I typically contacted the artist directly to find this information out.

When I first started with vinyl 5 years ago, this site was a non-stop source for music and sound recommendations. Michael you do a great job of bring us information, thanks!

DJ Huk's picture

I bought the Iron Butterfly record the other day. Great sound on the first side, but the second side had a terrible scratch on it. I didn't even make it to one of the "Heaviest" songs every cut: The Iron Butterfly Theme. Had to bring it back for a refund. A terrible bummer.

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