This 1961 album, only the fourth on the newly hatched Impulse! label, was Evans' first effort after his wildly successful series of Miles Davis collaborations that included Miles Ahead, Porgy and Bess and the ethereal Sketches of Spain. Eight years later Davis would produce In a Silent Way, which this album pointed towards at the beginning of the decade.
The album is worth getting for the 15 minutes of "La Nevada" alone but the rest is equally great including the cinematic side closer "Where Flamingoes Fly". I remember playing the Alto Analogue edition from 1997 on a big rig at an audio show and when "La Nevada" ended Lampizator's Lukasz Fikus came running to the front of the room looking as if a train had just run him over (it had!) asking "what was that???"
Side two features a magnificent brass drenched rendition of the Brecht-Weill composition "Bilbao Song" followed by a mischievous rendering of George Russell's "Stratusphunk". The trombone growing from just to the right of the left speaker should sound as if it's in your room, if your set up is working great and Gil Evans' piano should alarm just to the right of center. If you dig this track and picked up the great Verve/Acoustic Sounds reissue of George Russell's New York, N.Y., you'll definitely want to secure a copy of Russell's Stratus Phunk (Riverside 9341) and so the collecting chain goes!
The sonics here with a cut from the master tape by Ryan K. Smith (yes, the master tape— I have a current photo that for some reason I can't share with you) are incredibly transparent, spacious and flat-out thrilling (but the sonic picture looks nothing like the inner gatefold graphics) and somewhat brighter and less mid-band rich than the long out of print Alto-Analogue edition Bernie Grundman cut in 1997. Both are worth having for different sonic reasons and if you have a clean original Rudy Van Gelder cut (A-4) you may think you are set, but that cut is less spacious, somewhat dynamically compressed, has the RVG lower bass roll-off and is definitely less transparent—not that it's bad and some people do like the more "in your face" excitement. This one's here now though! Do not miss it!
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COMMENTS
after I compared it to my original, AP 45RPM and Alto.
The Alto has even slightly more bodily cymbals, but both more than the AP 45 (among other differences). As you say, the Alto and the new one are good to have and an Original is always nice somehow, too.
The new one has the clean, defined transient and dynamic sound of the 45, it’s own transparency and iimaging quality and most of the body and color of the Alto.
between the AP45, Alto, AP33. The 45 is out of the race for multiple reasons, no 3D, reduced color spectrum, less air and transparency than both others.
I prefer the AP33 to the Alto for the better defined bass and crisper treble as well as partly better transparency (it depends on the track). I prefer the Alto to the AP33 for the better holographic 3D sound, more air around as well as more intense color spectrum, all of which easily audible when the triangle starts at Flamingos. Just listen to the triangle alone and the trombone around if you don’t notice it already from the beginning. As soon as the cymbals come, I miss the crisper sound of the AP33, damn, we need both combined ;-) . Anyway I clearly prefer the Alto on Flamingo for 3D sound and air but the AP33 on Nevada for crisper sound and slightly better transparency.
Then the original, for me as Michael says less dynamics, cut off bass, less color and resolution than Alto and AP33,..but…the flatter triangle tone on Flamingo anyway has more air around than on the AP33 again, but less than the Alto.
I quite clearly prefer the Alto vs. AP33 against each other on different songs and the original is nice to have as an orientation for both. Crazy stuff.
like the sleeve and image resolutions? How is that for the Alto vs ASS?
for the original, Alto and AP33/45 are even. The original has the least glossy and least sturdy cover, the AP33/45 the most glossy and sturdy. Front cover color is not like the original for both Aalto and AP33/45, back cover color is quite like the original for the Alto and very different Orange for the AP33/45. Just part of the front cover differences might be some color fading of the original.
So the AP33/45 has the best cover, but also the most different from the original (but all front covers of AP33, AP45 and Alto are very similar and different from the original, just back covers have different deviation from it).
Amazing sound and packaging, a home run all the way.
Its also worth mentioning that this may be the first time the very original tape has been used since the RVG cut. On Where Flamingoes Fly the trombone notes have a slight distortion to them, likely due to mic overloading, not too uncommon for Mr Gelder. But this seems to only be clearly audible on the RVG original and this new 33. The 45 does not have it and I believe neither does the Alto, leading me to believe they both used different tapes, possibly corrected somehow. And since most everyone seems to agree the new 33 beats at least the 45 that seems to support the theory.
on this track which AP33 and Alto have. But my original also has no distortion there. Also strange.
Ive had others confirm that they hear distortion of a similar sort on their original when compared to the new ASS 33.
Could you double check?
and again today, my original has no distortion at all on the Flamingo track. And it is the original orange/black (real) deep groove, RVG STEREO stamped, no later pressing.
What must be said is that the original is much less dynamic than the others at this part of the track, more like background trombone vs. foreground. But as we don’t talk about groove distortion, this shouldn’t have influence here. On the Alto and AP33 the distortion rather sounds as mic or amp distortion.
I have no clue how this can be present on some of the pressings/masterings and on others not, other than different tapes or copies of different tapes were used for either of them.
Maybe the reason why it’s different on some originals is, that most are worn on the last track and mine is possibly a very clean one.
The only solution is: Michael must ask Smith or Grundman for a hint ;-)
I worked with Alto on the production of this reissue (and on almost everything that was released by Alto Analogue). I was with Bernie when he mastered and cut this tape. As far as I can recall (it was over 20 years ago!) the Alto edition was cut from the original analogue master tape. And there was some mic overload or distortion on it. I remember Bernie mentioning that.
of it, although I think the bass is just a bit undefined (usually not Grundman’s kind of problem)
it’s strange that my original has the same missing distortion as the AP45, but sounds better in 3D ambiance. It’s the quest of the day, sigh.
In that case I suppose if the Alto also has the distortion then it may also be from the original tape and only the 45 is missing it.
All I read is 45rpm is to die for*** Now a 331/3 comes alone and blows them out of the water??? Now what? Enjoy what you have. My health makes it so bad when I listen to 45rpm's with the getting up and down, for the 45's I need a Jukebox not a TT.
Just me
Ron
All things being equal, the 45 sounds better, hands down. But as illustrated in this specific case, source is more important. A 45 of an inferior tape will be inferior than a 33 of a better one. This is not the only variable though. Mastering equipment, vinyl formulation and pressing equipment can again offset the playing field (pun intended). This was easy to hear when Music Matters came out with its first 33.33 Blue Note series and then again with their releases on SRX formulation. Both generations bested prior releases by them and AP from the same sources. It has been reported here that Bernie's mastering facilities had been upgraded between the 45 releases and the 33s. Specifically cables were upgraded, though, you know, cables don't make a difference... If AP now reprinted these Verve reissues on 45 using same cutting facilities and presses and formula, they would sound better.
Its a case by case base basis on what is more important, mastering or sourcing. In this case it was the source that mattered most, not all.
Also, 45 doesnt necessarily sound better either, even if everything else is equal. Only if the sides run particularly long or have very challenging information to cut does a 45, all else being equal, make a sound difference.
It was Kevins mastering facility by the way and yes it was just cables, which I dont believe made much difference, but if we were to take every little bit into consideration theres a lot going against later masterings too considering the aging of tapes. I dont believe thats a big deal most of the time to be clear.
You already have an example of an ASS cut at 45, the Getz 33 vs 45 is not very different at all. My understanding is that they use the exact same mastering, the 45 is just cut louder which is easy to mistake as better, as Im sure you know. When thats accounted for it seems like a pretty identical sounding release to the 33, so its a no in that case.
necessarily, believe...
In this case the source is the single biggest contributing factor and the difference is not subtle. Other things probably contributed, but it seems like a constant that the editions sourced from the true master are consistently better and the secondary sources are inferior, even at 45.
All things being equal a 45 will sound better at any point in the recording and I have LPs to prove it. Take the Michel Legrand Impex reissues. Everything else is same and the 45 smokes the 33 at any moment in the music. I have other similar examples for easy confirmation through direct comparison.
I can think of very few examples where the 33 had a better source than a 45 though. Beyond comparing originals vs 45s where the original tape is lost.
I do not agree, but I appreciate the example because it exposes an inequality here. The idea was, all else equal. Well, in the case of Legrand Jazz the 33 and 45 do not use the same mastering, making them unequal and an unfair comparison. Its fine that the 45 is better, I like a lot of 45s over 33 counterparts too, but its important to recognize that they are better mainly because of the mastering, if the source is equal. There are very few examples again of 33s and 45s using the same mastering, but one is Fleetwood Macs Rumours by Kevin and Hoffman. If you test these and normalize the volume, which you didnt mention doing for the Legrand, you get a quite identical sound which the engineers themselves agree on.
are both KG Impex masterings at quite the same time released?
they are 2 years apart at least but that doesnt really matter. Like Grundman did with Classic Records, the 45s were always different masterings. And usually cut louder like most 45s.
Both 33 and 45 were:
"• Mastered by Chris Bellman and Bob Donnelly on Bernie Grundman Mastering's all-tube cutting system, Hollywood, CA
• Analog mix-down transfer of the original 1958 work tapes by Mark Wilder at Battery Studios, New York, NY
• Plated and pressed at RTI, supervised by Rick Hashimoto
• Gatefold jacket housed inside a resealable, protective plastic sleeve"
https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/135545/Michel_Legrand-Legrand_Jazz-18...
https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/142437/Michel_Legrand-Legrand_Jazz-45...
Seems pretty even to me...
but the mastering is different Im quite certain and the 45, as mentioned is probably cut a little louder too which you have to normalize for.
Not the same mastering, not a fair comparison sadly.
But I will again listen to them back to back tomorrow and measure sound levels
then recording and normalizing with software is the most accurate way.
“BTW: it's a not particularly well-guarded secret, but in case you didn't know: when reissue labels cut lacquers at 33 1/3 they almost always also cut at 45 for a later reissue. Just so you know that this one was cut from the same tape on the same lathe at the same time.
… other than to add that it sounds even "Legrander" at 45rpm, though if you already own IMPEX's 33 1/3 version, it's not really necessary to buy it again, unless you must!”
I might buy the 45 add. to my 33 maybe anyway if I get it cheap, as the 3D sounds so IMAX 3D that the last bit of kick might be worth it.
As I mentioned, Classic Records did the same where Bernie cut the 33 and 45 at the same time, although Im almost dead sure that Bernie did separate masterings for each speed in those cases too, even though they were done around the same time.
In this case with Legrand I dont know if both were cut at the same time or not, very possible, but that does not exclude different masterings being used. And the 45 will no doubt be cut louder as usual.
As I stated clearly, when the source is better the result tends to be better regardless of rpms as in the release in this review. The 33 source is better and sounds better than the 45. Of course mastering can be butchered, etc, which is why the disclaimer, all things being equal. I can think of a few Mofis in 45 that to me, do not sound better than better mastered 33s even though both were from the same master tape.
they are probably mastered better also, to your liking anyway. Again, you cant compare different masterings and blame the speeds.
Sound better to me even though 45s, that was the whole point of my comment, which you seem to be reading too fast. Mofis are 45 and do not sound better to me, but from the same tape. Definitely the mastering is the issue, that was my whole point.
I dont know which MFSLs you mean though. I dont recall many MFSLs that have both 33 and 45 formats, Santana and Dylan come to mind but I thought most preferred the 45s of those. Or do you mean 33s from other labels compared to MFSL 45s? Because then I can think of some examples indeed, because I have to say that I typically am not a fan of KWs mastering. He tends to go a little low in the EQ which can be beneficial and adds good bass, but loses a little on the realism which I prefer.
My only prior experience with this recording is the CD. Going from that to this release is a revelation. "La Nevada" is like a big wave coming at you. It's powerful and graceful all at once. This is a superb recording.
Big dynamics on this AP33, you are in the studio with the musicians......Reiterating what Michael said, this reissue is a must have.
But there are so many wonderful Impulse! records, some of them under the radar. E.g. The Great Kai and JJ (A-1) - was this the label’s first release? - with rhythm section that includes Bill Evans and Roy Haynes.
According to Wikipedia "The Great Kai and JJ" was indeed their first release. Look at those titles. Just amazing.
Is Benny Carter, Further Definitions: octet includes Coleman Hawkins, Charlie Rouse, Jimmy Garrison, Jo Jones. Mine must be late vintage - center label is red and black rather than classic orange and ABC figures prominently - but the disc is quite hefty snd the surfaces are quiet.
The key is that it's mono. I've yet to hear a stereo recording from this era that can beat it's mono counterpart. Horn to the left, sax to the right. It's all so distracting. From the late 60's forward stereo comes into its own with more realistic presentations.
I don’t believe anyone has compared the new AP AAA version to one that I have ( not unexpected in this forum). It is the 1986 “Digitally Remastered from Original Stereo Master Tapes” thin vinyl LP mastered for MCA impulse! by Greg Fulginiti at Artisan Sound. The soundstage seems to be nearly identical to the AP version. Some aspects of the 1986 LP I find appealing. Taking Stratusphunk as an example, the bass is more distinct and resonant in the 1986 version and somewhat rolled off in the AP version. I did notice the groove dimensions of the two versions are quite different on Side 2. The AP grooves measure 2-9/16” radially, while the MCA version measures 2-7/8. Side 1 is virtually the same for both versions. I am delighted to have both versions. I have not yet had a chance to compare all aspects of each of them, but zeroed in on Strausphunk because Mikey mentioned it in detail.
and I know it has a lot of good sounding titles on it. Does your copy have distortion on track A2s Trombone by the way?
No trombone distortion with my rig. I do notice the pulsing sound of air in the vibrato, somewhat reminiscent of Ben Webster’s tenor, but to a much lesser degree. I hear that on the AP version as well.
Hi just brought this lp on Michael’s review can anybody confirm if the distortion on Where Flamingos Fly is on the tape or a pressing issue as I’m really happy with my copy apart from this? I don’t want to send it back if the replacement will be the same?
I know people hate when others point it out, but, if you're hearing ANY distortion on those trombone notes, check your setup. Yes, even you Leon "the pro" (eye roll) AKA, distortion police. "I hear distortion on one note...send it back!". Give it a rest man.
and its not a defective pressing.
because the distortion on A2 is almost guaranteed to be on the tape. Its not about policing distortion, Im trying to get confirmation for what versions have it and which dont. So far only the Original RVG, Alto and ASS33 have reports for it. Every other version does likely not use the original tape. So dont be so cynical.
Hi the copy I have is the brand new pressing which Michael has just reviewed.
the message you are replying to is the one I wrote to: DinaMoe
The distortion is not due to pressing or setup error.
So the distortion is on the tape?
And I don’t need to get a replacement as that will be the same?
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