The Great Cable "Unmasking"

Well, here we go. More than 125 people have participated in the It’s Just Wire “blind test”, so thank you all. Certainly, we’ve dispelled the ridiculous notion that “wire is wire” and that all wire sounds the same. Which one might prefer is of course a personal preference. That we’d need blind A/B/X testing to “prove” that any sonic differences exist is absurd.

First of all, let’s clear up a few things: I’m not sure what some people are hearing as far as “swapped” channels. I am quite certain all of the files are “going in the same direction”, though it’s possible that they are all reversed, which should not be an issue. I used "File 1" as a base and if that was reversed then all were. Funny fact: if you compare various issues of the iconic album Getz/Gilberto you will hear the channels reverse among them. Mastering engineer Kevin Gray insists that the original release accidentally reversed the channels so when he re-mastered it for a few versions he reversed the channels to correct the original mastering engineer's error. (Which is no excuse for my having screwed this up).

If there are level differences, it has to do perhaps with cable resistance because nothing was changed from recording to recording!

File # 1 is the “straight run” on the Kuzma arm. The "straight run" and the second run from the cartridge clips to the junction box is with "standard silver Crystal Cable"..

It’s the black wire just above the largest, most ornate looking cable and has a ground wire with a banana plug attached. Given that it’s the only “straight shot” cable it stood the strongest chance of producing the best sound given the tiny voltages involved, yet it wasn’t the most often chosen as being best.

File #2 turned out to be a prototype cable (not in the photo), though due to a misunderstanding between myself and the manufacturer I didn’t know that. It is probably the most costly of the four but that’s just conjecture based upon the company’s usual premium cable pricing and its complex construction. I agreed to not identify the brand once I found out it was a prototype.

File #3 was very popular if not the favorite among the four. It is “Beyond” from RSX Technology, the company’s most costly phono cable. If the look of the cable appears familiar to some of you, particularly the purple color, that’s not surprising since RSX was recently founded by Roger Skoff who decades ago started XLO and decided to re-enter the cable business. For more about “Beyond” and the less costly RSX phono cables go to this link. A 1.5M length of “Beyond” terminated with RCA plugs costs $4500.

File #4 is the red and black set easily identified in the photo. It is Hosa CRA-200AU manufactured by HosaTech. It features oxygen free copper conductors, with a Spiral oxygen free shield and terminated with gold plated RCA plugs. A 1M set on Amazon costs $9.00.

I decided to “unmask” before giving you my opinion. So now here’s what I heard through my reference system with the files put on ROON and streamed through the dCS Vivaldi One and of course I knew what I was hearing so I was the most biased listener: File #1 compared to #2 and #3 was somewhat aggressive on top and images were neither as well-focused nor as pleasingly compact and well-organized as they were presented on #2 and #3. #1’s bass was not as well controlled either compared to #2 and #3.

I was surprised by how many listeners reacted negatively to #2. Definitely more “mellow” sounding than #1 but for me, #2’s presentation was better controlled and well organized overall, especially the vocal. #2 was my second favorite.

#3 was easily the winner (for me) as it was for many other listeners. It had the best timbral balance and overall instrumental attack and delicacy. Its superiority was immediately noticeable on the opening shimmer and especially the acoustic envelope surrounding the voice.

No doubt the best value was the $9 cable! And if you liked it the most you’re in for nine bucks! You can’t beat that. However, in my system it was kind of a disorganized spatial mess, plus overall instrumental attack was soft and spongy and the vocal presentation was timbrally incoherent, but it was not unpleasant and I can understand why some probably preferred it to #1.

The main point of this exercise was to demonstrate that wire isn’t just wire and that the cables you choose throughout your system contribute mightily to its overall sound, which does not mean you have to break the bank but that you should choose carefully.

When I read people saying they have assembled a costly system but really don’t pay attention to the cables because “wire is wire” and cables are “snake oil”, it doesn’t bother or anger me as much as it makes me feel sorry for them. I’ve heard systems costing hundreds of thousands of dollars that were just about ruined by poor cable choices.

BTW: I think A.C. cables might be the most important cables in a system and when I see in a high end set up the plain black rubber ones supplied with costly gear that manufacturers assume will be replaced, I just have to laugh. It’s that or cry and I’d rather laugh!

COMMENTS
pessoist's picture

Is actually a 2,3,4,1 to me.
And that, listening through an iPad to an UEBoom2 bluetooth connected, „it cannot work“ and it doesn‘t when choosing a cable of that value for my proper system of some very much higher value. It was an experiment.

1 sounded utterly uninspiring
2 the mellow music spectrum fitted voice and song, that this would have been my preferred cable listening through a wireless system, hahahaha
3 tightly followed by the not so mellow, more controlled and precision indicating (remember BT, mono) #3
4 just did a good job, less precise, less mellow than 2 and 3 but the chaos mentioned in soundstage is of course difficult to extract out of this crappy mobile system, but looking at price, definitely a go for a quick setup or vacation home intermediate setup.

Unfortunately the #1 was very distant and obviously off the line.

Cheers.

Happy Will's picture

I think a key question, and one that I hope Mr K will answer, is; is the cable to the RCA box the same as the straight through run (#1)? ie for #2,3 and 4 has the signal gone through #1 already?

If it is, it clearly illustrates the effect of cables and how they can be used to "tune" a system (which we all should know they are). The challenge, is how do you know if you can get a better result and what cable will do that for you, based on what is important when you are listening. And some advice doesn't fit - back in the 80's when I had Naim equipment (I am in the UK) I really diliked the Naim speaker cable and I felt like a heretic, and not long after I got rid of my Naim's.

Michael Fremer's picture
I can answer: There's a double run of standard Crystal Cable silver between the cartridge clips and the box. One run from the cartridge clips continues without a break to the RCA plugs. The other run terminates in the RCA jacks in the box. Clearly the short run doesn't overwhelm because changing RCA cables from the box makes a big sonic difference..
Intermediate Listener's picture

in upgraded cables. But my Rega RP6 came with hardwired interconnects that do not appear readily replaceable. Any advice/experience much appreciated.

Michael Fremer's picture
Doesn't think a break in the wire is worth whatever benefits might be obtained from different wire so the only choice is a total rewire which I strongly recommend not doing!
Intermediate Listener's picture

Thanks Michael!

Anton D's picture

If these differences are so obvious as to render DBT testing irrelevant, then it certainly wouldn't take much effort to actually perform the DBT and be done with it, no?

If we can do it with wine, we can do it with cable, I would think.

Think of the fame, fortune, and accolades that await that person! Maybe even a million dollars from James Randi!

So, we are still waiting for Godot when it comes to the DBT cable messiah. (They differences are so blatant that they can be heard on iPhones and via built-in computer speakers, after all.)

I love this comparison, but that 6 dB range of levels leaves be dubious, I admit. Am I the only one? Maybe.

It's been ~45 years of the great cable debate, perhaps it will be settled in another 45.

So, I am pro cable, and blind curious.

I know wine experts who can only discern differences between wines when they know which is which, so this affliction is not limited to cables, either!

BillK's picture

Please spend 30 seconds and investigate the history of MF and Randi and how he tried to take him up on his challenge.

Anton D's picture

Quite a tale, that's why I mentioned Randi. I can see both sides, but one of the main offered options was a cable with a Transparent Cable model with a "secret" control knob and the question was cable, not cable-plus-a-control-box that altered the cable's performance. The Pear Cable was a good choice...and if one really could hear the difference, a 7250 dollar investment could have paid a million bucks.

Too bad they couldn't have had a meeting of the minds with a straight up cable with no secret box.

Why did it have to be that particular Transparent cable? It could have been a "plain" "high end" cable and...booom...a million dollars.

Pear Cable seems to be the entity that got cold feet, not Mike.

Here is a review of the story...

https://gizmodo.com/pear-cable-chickens-out-of-1-000-000-challenge-we-se...

Michael Fremer's picture
Pear chickened out and Randi attacked me. Then Randi chickened out and then Randi ended up in the hospital and used that as an excuse for why he lied about me. Even some of his acolytes backed me! I said Transparent with the box was more than a cable... etc.
Anton D's picture

I see the story as you going into it honestly, and running into a crap-storm of fear and loathing by the other entities.

I meant that as a compliment, I hope it came across appropriately.

Michael Fremer's picture
The A/B/X box in the case of these tiny voltages will probably swamp differences IMO. But beyond that "double blind" tests "prove" that musicians can't distinguish between a Stradivarius and a student violin. So either there are no real sonic differences and the whole Stradivarius thing is "snake oil" or the test is stupid. I think it's the latter because test taking is itself a skill set so making these unskilled musicians (unskilled at test taking) jump through these hoops is ridiculous. I got involved with the Amazing Randi! Don't you know that story??? I probably should do a video and tell that story....in any case, I'll tell you a wine story: I know a very well to do gentleman who is not a show off. He brought two bottles of wine to a restaurant and had one uncorked and poured and the other decanted. He said nothing about either one. I didn't even look at the bottle of the first one but noted it was obviously a very complex and fine wine and I said so. He said it was a Burgundy and I forget exactly what it was....then without ceremony he poured the decanted wine. I took one tiny sip and burst out like the scene in "When Harry Met Sally", OH MY GOD! WOWI I'VE NEVER TASTED ANY WINE LIKE THAT! WHAT IS THAT?????" He turned the empty bottle around and it was Chateau Haut Brion 1989. Look it up. Yet there are still people who think all wine tastes the same....these cables clearly do not sound identical to one another. I'd only trust an experienced test taker to attempt an A/B/X test. I did one with amplifiers after being challenged. It was at an AES. I got all identifications correct! 100% Not only that, but I named which was which. But the organizer threw my result out because it was an "outlier" since the engineers at the AES where the test took place couldn't score better than chance. THEY COULDN'T RELIABLY DISTINGUISH A CROWN DC300 FROM THE VTL300! Now you don't think those sound alike do you? They surely don't measure alike! So why couldn't the engineers hear even that? Because they are not experienced test takers!
Anton D's picture

I undertake SBT wine tasting all the time. My point was that nobody lights their hair on fire when we talk about blind tasting wine, but us audiophiles certainly do when it comes to gear! All the while thinking of reasons to discount the exercise.

You were not an experienced wine taster, yet the example you use is perfect: an inexperienced test taker can do this stuff!

Us wine nerds take it to the point where the decanted wine might have been the same wine as the first, and differences would emerge merely via decanting! Big fun!

I love stuff like that.

I also agree that the A/B/X box and instantaneous type of test is ill suited to this exercise. There's no rush, listen all day, all week, then make a change, or not (!) and compare...I think that's the cool path for Hi Fi.

My Hi Fi Club does blind comparisons all the time. I think the first step toward beating 'blind testing deafness' is simply doing it in the first place.

Regarding wine, we can pick out grape, age, even producer...why shouldn't this be possible for cables, especially since so many of them "remove veils" and have "obvious sonic signatures that can be the size of orders of magnitude." Why should oenophiles be able to claim superiority of discernment vs. audiophile? We should do better

It's too bad we so often sit and congratulate ourselves over being able to hear the "obvious" differences between cables but go all "arms crossed and brows furrowed" when we get challenged.

_

To drift a little, that 6 dB range of level difference is something even JA should be able to measure. One of the British Hi Fi magazines does this, I will volunteer to go look for how wide their measurements can be...6 dB seems to strain credulity. Not of you, but of that order of difference.

Duke86fan's picture

i'm just a starting out audiophile in college with a uturn (hoping to upgrade to a mofi deck and a cartridge since i dont like having to do a lot of modification with rega products). and i dunno what cables would overall be the best when im just using a simple schiit preamp and headphone amp

Anton D's picture

I'd be interested in what Schiit has to say, they seem to know their Schiit.

Michael Fremer's picture
Listeners preferred the U-Turn Pluto over the Schitt by a considerable margin.
Duke86fan's picture

i actually heard from a hifi forum that the pluto was often giving issues with build and reliability, saying they had to get it repaired multiple times.

Michael Fremer's picture
The U-Turn is a great 'table for the $$$$....you should choose cables whose cost is commensurate with the cost of the rest of the system. I definitely like the lower end of the Kimber line....(I like the upper too but...)....
Anton D's picture

Love that company.

Duke86fan's picture

actually looked up the cables online and they seem to cost at least 100 dollars and i just want to stop a cable bottleneck from bad too stiff not grounded monoprice cables and my original idea was just getting either some blue jeans cables or audioquest evergreens

also thank you for reading my comment and saying my turntable was good (though i chose the grado option because i want a warmer not as bright sound as an ortofon and i dunno what alternative will give me good sound without saying too bright like its said on vinyl forums)

davip's picture

MF 1: "...That we’d need blind A/B/X testing to “prove” that any sonic differences exist is absurd"

MF 2: "...of course I knew what I was hearing so I was the most biased listener"

It's not absurd Mikey, and your statement '2' above is the reason that your statement '1' is wrong. It's called Confirmation Bias, to which you indirectly allude in '2'.

If You think that these differences between cables not only exist but are down to better 'quality' of sound (rather than simply the electrical differences between the cables) then you owe it to those you report these results to (given the financial differences involved and the manufacturers who profit from being 'best') to do those tests unsighted AND to have JA do full lab-tests to see if the playing field is level. Until that happens it's more probable that you are hearing tonal differences resulting from electrical (resistivity/capacitance/inductance) differences between the cables that are dimensionless in 'sound quality' terms.

In support of this perspective and regarding your 'N.B.', it's safe to say that these electrical differences will affect AC-carrying mains cables just as much, but Because those DON'T carry an audio signal any influence such cables have can ONLY be electrical. If you hear a difference in mains cables you must then ask yourself exactly What it is you are hearing in the audio ones.

When phono cables costs $3000 for 1-m and the companies making these can charge any amount for a thick dielectric and a silly name, inquiry needs to be systematic -- it was not so very long ago that a junior Stereophile 'reviewer' left to become a high-paid PR mouthpiece for a cable company, so there's both vast profits involved as well as attempts to game the field.

Michael Fremer's picture
I have done a considerable amount of it. I did it at Harman's facility some years ago and produced very consistent results. They didn't care which "sound" you liked, just that you could demonstrate consistency in your preferences. I did that. I was challenged to a "blind" amplifier test at an AES and got 100% correct identifications. However, the results for the rest of the test population was no better than chance so guess what? My result was TOSSED as an "outlier". And the test was produced to humiliate me personally and I humiliated the test producer by taking his challenge and leaving egg on his face. Now, davip, after that were you me how anxious would you be to take further tests like this? The proponents of "it all sounds the same" always find ways to "win". I am not going to be part of their scam posing as "science". I was also challenged once by someone who said "high resolution" audio was a scam and that 16 bit/44.1k was transparent to the source. That person send me files at 16/44.1k and 96/24 all were labeled as 96/24 and the challenge was to sort them out. Do I have to tell you the results? So, I'm content to let others now waste their time with blind testing. It's useful for some things....
davip's picture

...I'd still like to know whether what you're hearing is the electrical differences between cables or something not measurable. The reason for asking remains a simple one -- if it's just electrical (e.g., thickness of dielectric, weave of shield, thickness and inductance of conductor), then this is worth determining because once understood it can be duplicated without these filthy prices and arcane, BS, arm-waving hoo-haa from the vendors.

For me that's the $64,000 question (and I don't doubt that somewhere there's some money-grubbing, 99.9%+-margin cable company who say that their same-priced cable provides the answer!)

arcman67's picture

I think #2 sounded sooo different from the others that many saw it as the weaker cable. #3 and #4 were actually close on my studio monitors.

Trekmaster's picture

For me it's pretty simple. If I could aford $4500 cables to put on a high priced system that would up it's performance I would do so! The fact that I can't afford them and I don't have an expensive system the $9.00 cable is the one I use. To each his or her own. But Michael I appreciate your expertise and always enjoy your reviews and perspective in everything analog!! Keep on keeping on Sir! Peace and Love!

Jim Tavegia's picture

It was nice to fine Hosa was a decent performer as I have much of it in my 3 recording systems and have found when one brand produces hum, switching to Hose often solves the problem. I do find them to be decent performers. At 73 I had a hard time choosing between 3 and 4, but that is my hearing loss and nothing do to 3 being not as revealing. It is me for sure.

As for power cables I have an MIT IEC cable that dropped my computer recording noise floor nearly 10db and using a very affordable Furman 8 outlet AC filter box, I have 4 of them on all my audio gear, I can get a near -80db noise floor in my computer before opening up my microphones. I cannot complain about that.

Thanks for all the work you did to put this together.

Michael Fremer's picture
Garth Powell who designs AudioQuest's power conditioners (Niagara etc.) and cables formerly worked for Furman. He knows his stuff...
Jim Tavegia's picture

I just put them on both my Mac Mini USB to my Yamaha MG 10XU 24192 mixer and my Win 10 Focusrite Scarlett system and believe it has helped for all of $129. My Win is getting a new motherboard today and a new Gaming video card and upping the RAM to 32 gbs. Now that my files are getting bigger and going to add DSD downloads it was time to do it right.

It is not that little things matter, it is everything matters.

hiwattnick's picture

No matter how many times you show a nonbeliever in cables, that quality cables really do make a difference, has gotta start to get quite irritating after a while. It’s almost as if they’ve got their hands over their ears while singing aloud. As you mentioned, good cables can make or break a decent system, and I also feel sorry for those unwilling to even think about that fact. I don’t expect this test to make a believer out of everyone (or anyone, for that matter), but wanted to at least say thank you for doing it nonetheless, Michael. I’m sure you were aware of the response you’d get beforehand.

hiwattnick's picture

I forgot to mention that some of the biggest sonic upgrades I’ve made to my system was to change my AC cables to Audioquest, rewire my tonearm with Cardas wire, and run Cardas cable from my deck to phono pre. That was obviously much less expensive than upgrading actual components.

lionelag's picture

that I would flunk an ABX test, but can hear some real difference. There's too much going on in the recording to focus on everything-- I grabbed onto the one thing I know well--the sound of the guitar--(having played for 32 years) and heard what I heard (this computer has a Geek Pulse DAC and HiFiMan 400i headphones). 4 is surprisingly better than stock to me, and the next time I replace a tonearm cable, I may go in that direction. 3 sounded great. 2 had a little too much fairy dust for me, but did sound good. 1 was kind of bland.

The Stradivarius and wine tests need to be talked up more. Because I know professional violinists, and one of the things that would make them considerably happier is being able to have, play, maintain, and insure a $12,000 violin instead of a $300,000 one, if the tone was the same. The only classical string instrumentalists who seem to have adopted modern instruments in large numbers are violists, however, and that's mostly for ergonomic reasons.

With wine, yeah, I've had some absolutely amazing experiences without knowing what I was actually getting. And the price usually was commensurate, even if I was eating at a BYOB place with a oenophile friend and didn't recognize the label until I googled it later.

OldschoolE's picture

Well, first of all I don’t feel this was a fair test, but only because of the environment. It is just that there is nothing that beats a live in-person test. With internet you have all kinds of anomalies. On top of that, of course, people are listening on different gear instead of on the same system. So those two factors alone skewer things even if the test was to merely prove that cables make a difference.
I prefer real science to pseudoscience. I’m not saying cables can’t make a difference, they can, but that difference is tiny compared to many other things, including just small tweaks that are free or very low cost. I personally would not use cables to try to EQ my system. Realistically, the “difference” between most cables in any price range would be almost imperceptible except by very sensitive measuring equipment. All most folks have is their ears to measure with and that should always be the final say where one’s system enjoyment is concerned. If you hear a significant difference (before knowing cost), then by all means go with what you hear. Of course, cables don’t need to cost a fortune either and I agree with Michael that one should not spend outside what is commensurate with one’s gear. While I personally would not spend $1000 or more on cables on a $11k system lets say, but some might and it would not be wrong either. There is nothing to gain by spending a fortune though. It is the same with all audio gear as well and even with other things like cars, there is a demarcation line of diminishing returns. In other words, the difference between a $3000 cable and a $300 cable would most likely be imperceptible to the ear, so spending more money is wasteful and not needed in my opinion. Same thing with a car, they all get you from point A to point B, but often times the more expensive the car the more unreliable and costly to maintain it is. Of course, these days cars are made more and more poorly year to year by all the makes, what’s up with that?
I used to run Monoprice premium interconnects and speaker cable in my system. (I’m not saying what my system is, but I will say it is not commensurate with Michael’s by any stretch, however it is not from Walmart either). I had zero problems sonically with the Monoprice cables. I tried Kimber interconnects and had all kinds of problems, however that was on a different system than I have now. With my current (and final) system, I still had Monoprice cables initially, but there was an issue with the interconnects, not sonically, but with the terminators. They were way too tight and over-engineered. Also, the cables are rather stiff. I ended up going with WireWorld interconnects. As for fit, they are far better, but sonically, they are no different from the Monoprice cables. I even bothered to go a step up from the “entry-level” ones and two steps up from that for the cables into and from the phono preamp. That said, I also wanted new speaker cables and I like DIY (nothing new to me). So, I went and got some speaker cable from the same place many cable makes get their bulk cable. It was a little different than the Monoprice stuff, but very subtle. The biggest difference was the gauge, I went from 14 to 12. I decided to go all in and made them fancy looking with the flextec and heat shrink and nice terminators. They look like something from Audioquest, but without the plastic badge and battery pack, etc. Cost about $36 and an hour of my labor to make two 10-foot runs, but that is just aesthetics. This is the interesting point: They made a small but notable sonic difference to my ears! Soundstage was slightly wider and had more depth of field and I also heard more subtle details. I attribute all that about 98% to 99% to the gauge change in the wire and not some brand name or fancy wrapping, etc.
I personally think the power cable hoopla is designed to void warranties. The gear comes with the power cable it does for a reason. Is it the best grade of cable? No, but it is appropriate at least as it has been tested for and with the gear. If you had a new piece of gear at any cost and let’s say it has a 5-year warranty and you change the power cable straight away and then experience problems with the unit, what do you think will happen when you call the manufacture and tell them the problem? They will inevitably ask you to bring it in. They will find out you used a different power cable. These techs are not stupid, they know how to trace stuff. They will find out and you will have to pay because your warranty will be voided.
That said, if the warranty period on your gear is over though, then feel free to do whatever you like.

supamark's picture

Is that you never did actually correct the channel mismatch - 1 and 2 were the same, 3 and 4 were the same but with left/right switched (and I dl'd the files *after* you said you corrected that problem). Because the L/R were switched I couldn't compare the pairs.

I used HiFiMan HE-500 'phones, Schiit Asgard 3 amp (it's like a headphone Aegir - which is rated Stereophile Class 'A'), Schiit Modi mulitbit DAC fed by s/pdif input (since it sounds a lot better than USB off my PC).

This was a stark contrast to the tonearm comparison you did before where the three SAT arms all sounded distinctly different but amazing and the (I think SP-10) non-SAT arm sounded like dog crap compared to the SAT arms.

I listened and posted this before reading the above article or any comments so as not to be influenced by what was said. Didn't read the comments in the original article either (or much of the article), except folks saying WTF with the swapped channels (which apparently never got fixed). This has done nothing to change my mind about cable. I will agree that some speaker cables can alter the sound due to differences in capacitance/inductance and how the amp reacts to those differences but they're pretty minor in the grand scheme of things (preamp, DAC, vinyl front end, amp, and speakers all have a significantly greater impact).

Tom L's picture

I've always had a hell of a time getting any sort of signal through those black rubber cables. The ones with some sort of copper in the middle work a lot better.

dschian's picture

Re. subjectivism for evaluating cables- naysayers often point to the 'placebo' effect, which could have some merit if it were a case of people imagining that certain cabling changes led one to think there'd been a relative improvement or decline, but what about when a cable/inter-connect/power cord choice makes a system sound viscerally unpleasant? For example, I have some Thiel 2.3s in one of my systems- they have many strengths, and sound really good in that system at this point, but (as well known) can run a bit hot in the lower part of the treble range. First, I found I needed certain lines of Cardas interconnects to tame them; other lines early on- Audioquest or Ayre signature (sort of an audioquest/cardas hybrid, sound-wise) interconnects did not sufficiently tame the Thiel's problem. Speaker cabling also had to be Cardas. With better system isolation and a change to a tube preamp, tho aforementioned cable lines could be introduced for an overall better sound, but power cabling (primarily Shunyata) was still too intense if uniform, and thus needed a Cardas pc or two.
If a suboptimal cable combo creates a sound that actively makes me uncomfortable as soon as I listen to it, that would seem much less likely to support a placebo effect, especially since I think that for most audio applications of mine, the other cabling lines are considerably better than the Cardas (which I am not knocking overall, and about which I'm discussing more 'down-line' examples manufactured almost 20 years ago). A persistently-disturbing sound balance shouldn't simply be attributable to momentary whims or any power-of-suggestion, especially since it went against my overall desire to use more resolving cabling.

Archimago's picture

Wow. #3 is an expensive "Beyond" cable!?

Have a listen to the quiet parts. It's picking up hum. So unless it's an issue with the recording, IMO this is not good.

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